[Slalom4me]

In the same vein of better understanding, a further couple of remarks.

While "Attack" and "Decay" are terms that have useful meaning in certain fields, modulation of vehicle braking is not foremost amongst these. Making their use here counter-intuitive for plebs such as myself, perhaps for others as well.

So in place of "ATTACK", substitute "Application:  Rate of."  In our braking analogy, think about this user-adjustable rate as a spectrum running from the equivalent of a "Hard Jab" at the high end, down to "Gentle Squeeze" at the low end.

In Place of "DECAY", substitute "Release:  Rate of."  Again, in terms of our braking analogy, think about this user-adjustable rate as a spectrum running from the equivalent of "Side-stepping off pedal" at the high end, down to "Slow gentle feathering" at the low end

[Nonfractal]

Steve,
Your post has taken a while to digest. 
Maybe terminology that reflects the graph would make this easier to understand (and sell) 

Climb           (attack)
Peak            (brake)
Wait / Lull   (hold)
Descend     (decay) 

I'd be interested in how these might be handled without adding knobs all over the controller. 
One of my pet hates with the slot.IT SCP is the rotary knobs that are hard to tune, easy to knock out of adjustment and impossible to adjust by touch only.

Alan

[Slalom4me]

I'd be interested in how these might be handled without adding knobs all over the controller. 
One of my pet hates with the slot.IT SCP is the rotary knobs that are hard to tune, easy to knock out of adjustment and impossible to adjust by touch only.

Hmmm.  So, you dislike analog rotary knobs. What would you propose as an alternate?

Please do not say an LCD with a narrow-field-of-view display, inadequate brightness and buggy touchscreen response hosting a complex multi-layer menu for access to basic control parameter settings running on a sluggish operating system.  (You know, like the center consoles now provided in modern vehicles, in place of radios and heaters operated by knobs, buttons and slide controls.)

I have an SCP-2.  The knobs have sufficient resistance to movement that I have not experienced a change in setting from inadvertent contact (and the controller is carried mixed in where it can bump against other stuff in the pit box.)

If what Nonfractal means by "impossible to adjust by touch only" is that there are no detents providing tactile sensation of distance travelled during a rotation movement, he is correct.  Within their range of movement, the knobs are infinitely adjustable.  In practice, this works for me. 

Detents are fine where knobs are large and the amount of change per unit of rotation (sensitivity) is low.  When knobs are small and sensitivity is high, then often as not, I discover that the exact spot I want to position a knob is smack dab in the center of the high spot between detents.

As for having to glance at the knob, what I find is that I adjust controls while underway, tuning each in the moment in response to how the car is reacting.  Not caring about where the knob is set physically - unless it has reached the end of its travel.  Since cars vary in their response to control settings and my memory isn`t what it used to be, I customarily make a note of where knob settings wound up following an on-track session with each car.  The next time that car goes on track, a quick glance at the notes tells me where to set the knobs for a baseline to start the new session.  Keep in mind that settings are not just related to the cars - when the operator is sharp, tuning can be moved towards the pointier end of the spectrum than it can when when the operator is off game for whatever reason.  It is not uncommon for knob positions to change during a session, even with a very familiar car.

In closing, the SCP-2 offers control over some, but not all four braking parameters mentioned earlier.

[CMOTD]

Controllers are a personal choice, what suits one person does not suit another. I have tried a Slot.It and, like Alan, I found the control knobs a real pain to use. It didn't feel right in my hand either. I don't deny it is a very good product but my preference is for a Truspeed and I find the control knobs much easier to use and unlikely to shift inadvertently. Some of my friends think exactly the opposite. As always with these things, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it is always wise to try all makes before settling on one.

[Gordon Steadman]

Controllers are a personal choice, what suits one person does not suit another. I have tried a Slot.It and, like Alan, I found the control knobs a real pain to use. It didn't feel right in my hand either. I don't deny it is a very good product but my preference is for a Truspeed and I find the control knobs much easier to use and unlikely to shift inadvertently. Some of my friends think exactly the opposite. As always with these things, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it is always wise to try all makes before settling on one.

Yes indeed. I thought the Truspeed was a terrific controller but didn't suit me. I tried Don's SlotiT at the Confolens 6 hour race and found it much too big for comfort. The SCD I now have is the right size, has one working knob for resistance and is worked by thumb. Perfect for me but no doubt, impossible to use for others.

[Nonfractal]

I'd be interested in how these might be handled without adding knobs all over the controller. 
One of my pet hates with the slot.IT SCP is the rotary knobs that are hard to tune, easy to knock out of adjustment and impossible to adjust by touch only.

If what Nonfractal means by "impossible to adjust by touch only" is that there are no detents providing tactile sensation of distance travelled during a rotation movement, he is correct. 

Hmmm.  So, you dislike analog rotary knobs. What would you propose as an alternate?

Yes, no tactile feel of where the knob is in its rotation. 
Add to that: Full-left and full-right are both "full braking"with no way to feel how close to the centre you are ( or which side of the centre you are) which in turn means you cannot be sure of whether a right turn will increase or decrease the brakes or vice e versa.

Would linear sliders work? I see those on sound desks and wonder if they could be applied on a controller.

[Nonfractal]

Having chatted to some racers at the weekend (Nascot wood SRC Porsche six  hour enduro ) it seems that I'm the only one who likes the idea of linear slide  controls. 
"Too easy to knock out of position" I'm told. 
Maybe they could be recessed?

There were very few SCPs at this event, lots of old Parmas, lots of tru speeds. 
Some things that did come out of these conversations....

A bad thing about rotary knobs is that they have no ratcheting effect. 
Pots are available that give you a really tactile thump as it is adjusted through its range.

I did not know that tru-speed make digital controllers. 
NOT slot.IT Oxigen compatible though. 
Many of us are locked into the SCP because of digital oxigen racing. 
The SCP is the only controller into which the oxigen cartridge can be fitted.
If tru speed or another manufacturer were to create a controller that could take that cartridge, our team would would be all over it! 

Alan

[woodcote]

Good to see you yesterday Alan! I remember hearing vague rumours that Steve was looking at developing a Truspeed model that is compatible with Scalextric ARC. ARC controllers - with a change of firmware - are compatible with oXigen. I don't know if those rumours were true or not, but I'd be very excited if they were...

[Slalom4me]

Add to that: Full-left and full-right are both "full braking"with no way to feel how close to the centre you are ( or which side of the centre you are) which in turn means you cannot be sure of whether a right turn will increase or decrease the brakes or vice e versa.

Am I correct to venture that this is hypothetical talk?  Anticipation of a problem, rather than a description of one experienced in practice?  If so, then I encourage asking SCP-2 (& 1) owners about their opinion on the matter.  Even better, put in some laps with an SCP in hand to determine how this experience aligns w/ predetermined notions about shortcomings of the SCP's brake knob.  Apologies if you have already done so and your comments are derived from the experience.

For my part, before starting a track session I know which of the two Braking Strategy modes (Sweep: left/Fixed: right) the knob is set towards.  The initial position of the knob will be determined by referring to notes made during previous practice outings for a given car/lane if available, or set to a conservative setting if not.  Then, once a track session is underway, the knob position is fine tuned with minor incremental adjustments if desired.


Diminishing braking effect on car behavior is readily apparent to me as the knob approaches zero at 12 o`clock. I imagine that in the event that the knob turned too far, entered the range of the alternate Braking Strategy and began increase braking effect, I would soon notice and respond with a reversal of the knob.

Even so, I will amend my earlier argument against tactile knob position detents to acknowledge that if Slot.It added one at the 12 o'clock zero point, this would not contribute to the problem I mentioned in a previous post (loss of infinite adjustability) and such a change might be beneficial for others.

Would linear sliders work? I see those on sound desks and wonder if they could be applied on a controller.

A bad thing about rotary knobs is that they have no ratcheting effect.

Pots are available that give you a really tactile thump as it is adjusted through its range.

Random impressions about sliders.
 - Inherently bulkier than rotary knobs for a given distance (mm/in) of travel.
 - What negative impact occurs on operability from recessing/shrouding for bump protection ?
 - An advantage in sound desk applications might arise from the 'at a glance' display of individual levels across several inputs.  In comparison, banks of rotary knobs and meters come up short communicating their relative positions quickly.

To restate my objection to knob detents:  by their nature, detents eliminate a significant part of the positioning choices otherwise available. In terms of your analogy to ratchets, anyone who has ever worked in tight confines using a bargain ratchet with a coarse, sloppy mechanism might agree that a premium ratchet with a very fine mechanism is a much more pleasant tool for the task and that perhaps the perfect tool for such situations would utilize a form of Sprag Clutch with next to no backlash giving essentially infinite range of positioning, if such a tool existed.  My point being that knob detents for me are prone to be like those gaps between the teeth of gears in a cheap wrench's ratchet mechanism - places where I want to be, but can't get to or stay at.

[Steve Hills]

Good comments from everyone in this thread. 
The key thing that emerges from most forum discussions, is that, like almost everything, personal preferences govern our choices. 

I've made prototypes with rotary multi-detent pots, smooth pots and rotary switches. The most preferred have been the rotary switches. 
Slide pots don't have sufficient life span and are too easy to accidentally adjust. 
For the latest design there's a combination of rotary switch and smooth pots. 
For all these brake features fine tuning is the idea, so the smooth rotary pots adjust between the detents of the rotary switches. 
The pots will be intuitive and accessible, while being recessed relative to the rotary switches to prevent accidental rotation. 
 
Tactile feedback is important to make quick adjustments on the fly while actually racing, so the layout and function descriptions are important. 
For the TruSpeed range I have always named the controls such that turning clockwise will increase whatever function it adjusts. 
To that end, nomenclature chosen is deliberate to avoid confusion about which way to rotate. 
Additionally the finite faceplate space determines the length of the control names. 
It ends up being a balancing act that won't please everyone, but usually pleases most. 

Possibly the use of RISE and FALL in place of ATTACK and DECAY could work OK, but not sure it really helps.
A graphical representation of the functions will follow once the prototype reaches the production stage.